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Worth noting that information is a property of a model and not the universe itself, so different observers can perceive different information leaks.

So, the ideal's perfect information preservation. Whenever we fail to preserve information, we can't be sure that our models are complete.

Then, the assertion that information's indestructible is basically the idealistic demand that the laws of physics reach that theoretical optimality.

As an ideal, it's worth noting that it's not necessarily a practical truth. We can construct hypothetical laws of physics that would practically not preserve information; if any of those happen to be the case, then the claim that information's indestructible would continue to be unrealized.

Regardless, systems that appear to lose information are glaring targets for scientists for two big reasons:. Any sort of prediction that can be made based on the " lost " information constitutes a novel discovery.

Most of the current laws of physics purport to conserve information, so they're ready tools to attack the lossful system with.

The black hole stuff is an example of the second point. If black holes appear to leak information whereas current theories don't, then that seems like a prime opportunity to attack black hole models with other theories and see what falls out of it.

A bunch of people answered but with very complicated things. So I am going to answer with some far more understandable and fun things Firstly Susskind thinks, like many people, that physical laws are reversible and therefore it stands to reason that information cannot be lost otherwise you would't be able to reverse things.

And when he says that information is not lost, he means in theory, regarding the whole universe with a god-like state of knowledge, not to any particular person.

Then there is the question of exactly what you mean by entropy. Entropy is information in the system that you don't know.

For example in a bathtub of water conventional observations might include the temperature, pressure, and volume, but there are countless bits of information encoded in the states of all the water molecules, their motions and vibrational modes.

This is unknown information and much is not even observable in practice; all we know is things about the energy distribution. The number of bits of entropy would be the number of bits of additional information above what you know already, that you would need to laboriously catalog in order to fully describe the system at one instant.

Let's consider one mode of information loss: erasing computer data. Whenever a bit is flipped in a computer memory, that information is over written and conventionally we consider it to be lost.

However physically flipping these bits generates heat in the circuitry and that cascade of atomic scale events involves the dissipation of that bit of information into thermal vibration modes.

So you ask, can this information be recovered from the environment so we can know the value of the bit? The answer is no in this specific case because the heat from the bit has almost infinite dimensions to dissipate into, and so there's no real practical way to gather that back together, but it doesn't mean that the information is destroyed, just that it is no longer accessible to us, and therefore becomes unknown information, which we know is there, and is quantifiable, and so we call it entropy.

Now let me show you a way in which entropy can actually be reduced. Let's suppose you have a box into which you throw computer cables, like USB cables or power cords.

Maybe you initially lay them on top of each other in an ordered way. But then a year later you come to that box and all the cords are tangled up in a big hairball.

The initial ordered state has low entropy. You put the cables in on top each other in some order, so supposedly you should know some information about the arrangement of the contents of the box, even if you don't know all the specifics.

Now over time, people might poke around in the box looking for one cable or another so stirring around the contents, and pushing things aside and vibrating the contents in various ways.

This is disordered unknown environmental information that is being added to the box contents. Its a random bunch of forces on various cables over time, and you are not making any note of that information.

So the entropy of the system hidden information from the external random perturbations is being increased.

In the end you have a whole bunch of cables that are knotted together in various ways, instead of being independent and simply organized. The information encoded in all those knots and tangles came from the random environmental information that was added.

This is the increase in entropy. So then not being happy with this situation, you decide to organize them. But in practice what that means is that you have to undo all the knots by perceptually following each cable through the system and becoming cognizant of the information that was added, in order to unthread all the tangles and separate them again.

So this process of sorting that you do is lowering the entropy of the system because you are exhaustively cataloging and rapidly forgetting exactly how the hidden information was encoded in the cable tangles.

But also note that this process required energy and time on your part. And the information that was encoded in the cable tangles went into your brain, and then was forgotten, and dissipated as thermal energy.

But the weird thing is that entropy is related to your state of knowledge. So that means you and I can potentially ascribe different entropy to the same system depending on what we know in advance.

For example if I receive a million bits of information, I can calculate the frequency of the 1s and 0s and other statistics, and that gives me some information, but then the rest I consider to be hidden and therefore I can put a large entropy number on it.

In the same way if someone had somehow noted how each interaction with the box of cables over time had affected them, then at the end the entropy would be low from the viewpoint of that person even though the cables would still be tangled.

It's just that that person who watched how they got tangled didn't allow the information to become hidden, and in theory doesn't need to actually analyze the cables at the end in order to understand them, they could mechanically untangle them like a robot with zero or low levels of perception.

My understanding was always that this was a result of time evolution preserving measure in state space. Now let's consider the time evolution of the entropy.

Another case to look at is quantum mechanics. Notice here that it wasn't sufficient for the dynamics to be reversible.

The dynamics really need to preserve volume in state space. ANY current state of matters is an 'effect' that resulted from infinite amount of causes.

And it also is a cause for subsequent effects itself. In short, just like matter, information also transforms, changes into different states through cause and effect mechanics.

So, what we call 'chaos' or 'entropy' or any other seemingly incomprehensible and un-trackable state of existence, is also a state which results from infinite numbers of causes leading to effects.

That we are not able to track, distinguish, calculate, comprehend, explain such states of existence does not mean that they are outside the cause-effect mechanic and other mechanics that make existence.

So any state in a chaotic, entropic state should be theoretically traceable to earlier states, should actually be coming to being due to cause-effect mechanics that can be observed, calculated if you had the means to, and also should naturally be linked to any earlier state of information - including the state where the entropy, chaos or 'destroyed information' did not come to being yet, and the earlier information we were observing was there as it was.

Conservation of information, if you will. Information is also subject to the cause-effect mechanics that is inviolable anywhere in existence.

That some cases seem to 'violate' cause and effect relationships - like some quantum physics experiments - does not mean that they violate the mechanic in regard to general existence itself, leave aside universe.

If you would look at black holes and explanation susskind and others brought, there is no exception - information is protected and conserved and linked in this or that way.

Therefore it is indestructible : you should be able to reconstruct any information which led to the CURRENT state of information by analyzing current state of information and deconstructing it.

Which includes anything falling into black hole and merging into singularity. Sign up to join this community. The best answers are voted up and rise to the top.

Home Questions Tags Users Unanswered. Why is information indestructible? Ask Question. Asked 8 years, 4 months ago. Active 1 year, 1 month ago.

Viewed 22k times. Is that information that is lost, through the increase of entropy really recoverable? MarianD 1, 2 2 gold badges 8 8 silver badges 16 16 bronze badges.

Is it based on a popularization? The only context the question if information could get destroyed left therefore is therefore in the context of black holes which the OP does not want to hear about.

But even in this case, the issue has been solved as can be read for example on [many] site:motls. Active Oldest Votes.

The 'field equations' consist of a set of allowed colorings for each 2x2 block of cells: A total of 27 local color patterns are allowed.

Suppose that when looking "North" or "West" along the lattice directions, you hit a horizon beyond which an infinite sea of yellow squares stretches: "North" and "West" we label as 'light rays from the past'.

Given this 'snapshot', and using the field equations the allowed 2x2 colorings , we can start reconstructing the past: Here, the rule applied to color the cell follows from the square at the bottom of the center column in the overview of the 27 allowed 2x2 squares.

Continuing like this, we obtain the full past of the universe up to any point we desire: We notice that we constructed the full past knowing the colorings of 'light ray cells' in the 'snapshot' that, excluding the uniform sea beyond the horizons, count no more than 25 cells.

Now we reverse the dynamics, and an interesting thing happens: knowing only 9 color values of light rays to the future again excluding the uniform sea beyond the horizon : We can reconstruct the full future: We refer to these 9 trits that define the full evolution of this cellular automata universe as the 'information content' of the universe.

These observations, however, go well beyond the questions asked. Johannes Johannes Can you make the reconstruction part more specific? Because this mass is significantly larger than the so-called Tolman—Oppenheimer—Volkoff limit , which provides an approximation for the maximum mass to avoid an infinite gravitational collapse, Cygnus X-1 was identified as a black hole.

In , 26 years after the discovery, Hawking conceded the bet, acknowledging that improved observations led to the conclusion that Cygnus X-1 was indeed the first black hole ever discovered.

Diligently, Hawking paid Thorne a subscription to the magazine Penthouse! In , not satisfied with the previous wager, Stephen Hawking and Kip Thorne made a bet with John Preskill on a very peculiar consequence of the evaporation of black holes, nowadays known as the information paradox.

The evaporation of a black hole, instead, seems to suggest that information is lost during the process. While Hawking and Thorne bet that information is indeed lost in a black hole, Preskill bet that it must not, under any circumstances.

The prize for the winner was, quite obviously, an encyclopedia of choice, definitely a book with plenty of information.

Hawking ended up convincing himself that information is not lost and conceding the bet in , while Thorne has not conceded yet. To this date, the bet is still open and the information paradox unsolved.

If you are interested in calculating properties of any black hole of your choice, including its evaporation time, try out the Black Hole Calculator of the author of this TED-Ed lesson.

Share: facebook twitter reddit whatsapp email classroom. View discussion. Quantum mechanics has an equally strong rule that prohibits the loss of information.

This principle, called unitarity, is intimately linked with other unbreakable laws of physics, like conservation of energy.

Theorists contented themselves with this view until , when Stephen Hawking drew a revolutionary conclusion about black holes: Given enough time, a black hole will dematerialize, radiating away through a process we now call Hawking evaporation.

Maybe it leaves behind a tiny ember that contains an enormously compressed version of all the information that ever fell into the black hole.

This left physicists stuck between a rock and a hard place: Either information could be lost, or somehow something could escape from a black hole.

A central tenet of quantum mechanics was pitted against the cornerstone of relativity. One theory, it seemed, had to give.

The debate went public in , when Stephen Hawking and theoretical physicist Kip Thorne made a bet with John Preskill of Caltech that it would ultimately be shown that information was truly lost inside black holes.

At the same time, and out of the media spotlight, string theorists were exploring a remarkable duality in their equations. They found that if you take a mathematical description of a system and add an extra spatial dimension and a negative curvature, you have something that looks very much like quantum fields in a three-dimensional universe without gravity.

In the context of the black hole information paradox, this suggested that information about the stuff in the black hole could somehow be encoded on the surface of the event horizon.

Still, the encyclopedia remained unclaimed as the bet dragged on, until , when Hawking announced that he had changed his mind and was ready to concede.

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